109 | Harmonizing Art and Income: Mastering The Pitch & Protecting Your Muse with Kacey Hayes

Speaker 1:
0:01

Alright, guys, this is gonna sound harsh, and if you are a creative, an artist, musician, singer-songwriter, and you are yet to utilize podcasting, you are missing out on thousands and thousands of fans, and my guest today, casey Hayes, goes into deep dive on all the cool things that podcasting, writing everything. We talked about human design, we talked about dinosaurs, we talked about the best well, maybe not the best, but the weirdest foods. Oh man, we had George Washington in there. It was wild. Elvis was crazy. So you're gonna, you're gonna want to tune in on this one. Alright, you know what time it is, let's do this thing. Yo, welcome to another episode of Under the Radar Secrets. To Success. Thanks for the independent musician. And today we got a doozy in store, folks, I've got Casey Hayes, writer, extraordinaire podcast guesting expert. I mean, you do a lot of things, casey. First thing I want to know, though, is what's been the highlight of your Monday so far?

Speaker 2:
1:20

Ooh, the highlight of my Monday is probably well, it's still kind of early over here, so probably my breakfast. I really love food and my breakfast was really good this morning.

Speaker 1:
1:32

What did you have?

Speaker 2:
1:35

I had avocado toast on sourdough with an egg and some pickled onions and some coffee. It was delicious.

Speaker 1:
1:46

You're taking me back to the Australia days. That was like the standard, Just the avotoast poached egg, little like caramelized onion type stuff. So good. So good, You've got quite the southern draw there. Where are you coming from here? I know people are going like oh, that's an interesting accent. Where are you coming from, Casey?

Speaker 2:
2:08

I am in Alabama, outskirts of, well, very outskirts of, birmingham, but it's the north half of the state, in Alabama, in a little teeny, tiny town called Riverside.

Speaker 1:
2:19

Oh yeah, there we go. And what's the coolest part of Riverside? Did you grow up there?

Speaker 2:
2:25

I didn't grow up here. I grew up like an hour and a half away. The best part about Riverside is getting to live on the river because it is on the river. So we're on the Coosa River.

Speaker 1:
2:37

Yeah, we love it here, that's beautiful, yeah, and it's an interesting turn because I want to take this right into the content. Today we want to address a few different things. We want to talk about crafting your pitch as a creative for not just the show but other avenues that I think a lot of creatives. After I had met you, I'm like wow, this is something that people more musicians, more artists, more authors they've got to be utilizing this and you've really specialized in on that.

Speaker 1:
3:06

I also really want to talk about work versus employment, and I'd love to start in that world right there, because there's so much debate, let's say, as a nice way to say, of the standard my art is my art and I don't charge for it and I don't make money with it, and I've got this starving artist mentality. Regardless of the discipline, it's across the board. Musicians are notorious for it Versus, how do we use our art and our passion to fuel the actual process? You know what I'm saying, like how do we make it work versus employment? I'd love to get your thoughts on that and let's start there. What do you think when that question comes up? How do I make my art and not feel like a dirty salesman trying to sell it and hustle, hustle, hustle right.

Speaker 2:
4:02

Right? Yeah, and it's a tricky question and I think the answer changes like depending on whatever season of life you're in, whatever phase of your career that you're in. Probably my co-host of my podcast would be so awesome at this question. Karen, she has an amazing podcast called Heal and Go Public. I'll go ahead and just plug that for her. Yeah, but she's very much like in our podcast. She comes to it from like the artist mentality of like make art versus content type of thing. A really strong viewpoint there and I love always hearing her insights about like that specific, like artist driven, creative tap into that world because she's also an entrepreneur. And it's like how do you walk that line? How do you balance those things? How do you like?

Speaker 2:
4:51

Still, she had the most awesome term for it on our podcast the other day something about creative pursuit, like keeping alive the creative pursuit even though you're an entrepreneur, even though you're having to do marketing and sales and all that stuff.

Speaker 2:
5:04

That feels like we're told that it feels gross. It's like does it feel gross or do we kind of go into it with the lens of already expecting it to feel gross? Sometimes I battle that question but knowing at the core, like what you do, like your values, your purpose. I think like connecting back to that really helps and it also helps like we can talk about a little bit more later. It also helps having that like inner reflection be really strong when it comes to like pitching yourself and like presenting your distilled like knowledge and takeaways that you can offer to people in a really potent way and really quick way. So just like it is a tricky question, though, like between employment and art and how do you kind of walk I think it's a line that we just walk all the time and have to like constantly check in about, and I know it's probably like a separate I can't really speak to it from a musician lens. I would love to hear, like what the musician viewpoint typically is from that perspective.

Speaker 1:
6:08

Yeah, I mean that's. That's a great jumping point because I was just like in prep for for our conversation. I was reading back through one of my favorite books. I've got it like still open back here. It's by Beth Pickens Make your art no matter what, and the central theme of that, the reason I connected so much with it, is because one of the biggest challenges we always have is like that.

Speaker 1:
6:30

It's a struggling, almost a martyr syndrome right From for a musician. They feel as though they're creating this art and they don't want to ask for money from it. And it comes down to like imposter syndrome. It comes down to like the self worth question. It comes down to a lot of the actual mindset and the narrative that we're taught for so long because, like oftentimes when we're growing up, I'm sure any kind of creative discipline got this, get a real job came up, or when are you going to get? What's the backup plan? What's plan B? You know there was always.

Speaker 1:
7:03

There was so much instilled doubt in my youth anyways, and that was like you know, it was kind of just a fun thing and nobody ever really took it seriously. But I wrote in my damn yearbook we're going to be rock stars one day, like I had it. I'm like no guys, this is happening right. So I'd be really interested to look at it from your lens, because here's the thing, one of the things and we can take it this way one of the things talked about in the book that Beth discusses is okay, we'll stop thinking about the product as being the sale that's yours. Like, let that happen, let that be yours.

Speaker 1:
7:42

And Rick Rubin says the same thing. Right, he's like yo make art and the minute you release it, it's successful. But if you're relying on that product maybe it's an album, maybe it's a book, maybe it's a poem, maybe it's a piece of visual art, whatever that is if you're relying on that thing to pay your bills, there's so much pressure. So you've done a great job at this and and that's how we got connected and how you got into what you're doing writing, copy writing, pitches writing, getting people in guest mode what do you have to say when you look at using the skills, rather than actual talent, of what the art is Like? Here's the product, but what are all the outlying skills that it took to get that end result? Things like lessons, even just writing, in a different mean, in a different means for any writers out there. Do you want to take a take a stab at something like that, like what kind of technical skills could you monetize?

Speaker 2:
8:43

Well, you know, like in the online business world, it feels like you can monetize almost anything and for a while, especially if you use like a VA type title, like virtual assistant title. So much falls under the umbrella of VA, because you can basically monetize any task, like if you want to help someone clean out their inbox, you can help them do that. If you want to get someone booked on podcast, which is what I help people do you can do that, and it really just depends on what do you think that you can commit to doing. Or this is how my experience was when I got into online business.

Speaker 2:
9:19

Cause, once I got, once I explored like what does writing really look like? Like what does content writing look for me? How can I help people with my content writing and my special, unique way? Cause we all do it differently and we all do business differently, even if you might have the same title. It was interesting to figure out. Like what did I want to spend most of my time doing? So I take I toyed with, you know, like social media content writing, um, helping people like strengthen their presence in social media and things like that, cause that's typically the first thing that people want to outsource. They're like I don't want to be doing this all day, like I need someone to help me.

Speaker 1:
9:55

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2:
9:57

And that's a great way to start and it's something that I still do a little bit of.

Speaker 2:
10:02

It's more in the vein of helping people repurpose their podcast content into social media. Now, um, because I found out I didn't really want to be on social media 24 seven either and like monitoring their pages and like checking for comments, and a little bit of scope creep kind of happens when you're a writer that is helping with social media Cause then they kind of think, well, since you're already in there, can you like post this real? And since you're already in there and you maybe reply to some DMs and some comments and stuff and comment on my behalf, and it's like this is I think people don't understand that those are like totally different jobs, like there are whole jobs where it's the person's like livelihood to create your social media engagement and it's like then that's a whole separate conversation about like boundaries and business and how to set boundaries when you are the business and you're the one making the money for the business and all that stuff. So that could be a whole other episode, right now I'm like all right.

Speaker 1:
11:00

So yeah, I'm kidding.

Speaker 2:
11:01

But yeah, as far as coming to like, what skills do you want to monetize? It's kind of like I think the the basic building block of it is what do you want to spend most? What can you spend most of your time doing and have that still be like a fulfilling, meaningful experience for you? Because for me, like, for example, the social media, it got to be really Soul sucking in a way, just to be consuming that a lot, and that's Instagram and social media and stuff is are things that I personally go through Different cycles with from time to time. Am I spending time on there? Am I not like, do I want to? Who am I engaging with? What does that feel like? Is this enriching my life or am I wasting time like kind of stuff? And yeah, so, just from my personal experience and perspective, to get away from that and more into like long form, which is where I found myself in podcasting and helping people Optimize their podcast and like make more podcasts, whether it's on their own or as a guest on someone else's all that stuff Kind of like built on my prior experience and desire and interest in Long-form written content, and so that's just kind of where I found myself.

Speaker 1:
12:16

I love that. Actually, I'd love to keep going down that line too, because you said something really interesting. You know, the the social media is soul sucking and I know a lot of people are thinking that and they think that's the only way, especially in our, you know, tick-tock 10 second of fame Moment in this, in this life right now, which is really, really interesting when you think back. Like Led Zeppelin didn't have any Social media. They did pretty good. You know what I mean. Like yeah, biggie, like biggie. He was long before right.

Speaker 1:
12:45

So it's like, if we think about these, these heroes, these legends of rock and roll, they were able to do it and I know a lot of people that it would be hard-pressed to like if they didn't have their phone on for like the day. And and that's one of the challenges coming through Music fit method is that's one of the things I say. I'm like we have to have like a proper social detox so that you're not Absorbing all because, like consumption, when we think of you know you said you're a foodie it's the nutrition is not just restricted to the food that you're eating, it's like everything you bring in. Do you want to speak to that like what led you from the social media into the long form? Was there a personal like moment where you're like oh, I'm so much. What did it feel like? How do you know when you're aligned with that?

Speaker 2:
13:29

mmm. Well, for me, I think it has a lot to do with I don't know how familiar, how familiar you are with human design, so I don't want to go down too far, that's a whole other.

Speaker 1:
13:41

No, that's, that's what that's what everybody everybody comes in. They do their human design with me, so yeah, yes, oh, my god, that's genius.

Speaker 2:
13:50

So, yeah, well, as a generator, it's either like whole body, yes, or whole body no. So, and a lot of the time and you have, but you have to be connected to yourself to know that and I feel like In certain seasons of life, like I'm in one right now, social media just feels like it's getting in the way of that. It just feels more like noise than anything that's helping my creative process or helping my business process, which are very intertwined, like they're kind of almost the same thing, and it's kind of like how do you know that you're my co-host, Karen, and I talk about this all the time? How do you know you're having original thought if you're constantly consuming, like other people, stuff, other people's content, other people's, and there's a time for that, there's a time to be inspired, and there's a time to like take that away and like okay, what does that mean for me, though? But then there's a time where you're just like I've used this Analogy before where it's like baking cookies, like you stir the batter and you stir the batter, but then you have to stop and you have to like put it in the oven and you bake and all that. It's like you're constantly stirring, when you're constantly consuming, like you're never getting to the next phase, you're never producing, like the end product.

Speaker 2:
15:02

And like, where does that come in? Like, how is social media affecting you? How, just having, like your own self-aware I feel like my brain is going in 10,000 directions at once but have ultimately having that self-awareness to know what does that feel like to have a whole body, yes or no to something? And like allowing yourself For that to be true, because for a long time I would push through, because it's it's your money. Like I would push through stuff I hate it to do because it's like, well, what else am I gonna do? Like this makes me money. I don't really know what else I would do. Instead, I can just suck it up for a while longer, it'll be fine. And then that's where, like you kind of start to trigger that resentment because you're doing stuff that you really Don't want to be doing, that you know isn't really for you, but money is tied to it and that's a tricky thing.

Speaker 1:
15:50

It's, it's such, that's the, that careful, like it's like a teeter-totter you go too far on one side, you come back and you it's constantly for myself like harmonizing. I think that's part of the conversation about how do we make our art Less feel like employment and make it like that's its own thing. You can just produce art and it'll it'll do its own thing. You don't have to like sell it. But I mean for my, for my experience, like I, for a whole season of my life, I was composing music on Demand, like good stuff, like quality stuff on demand, and that was it led me. I didn't get quite there, but I could definitely feel it. It was very close, similar feeling to anybody that's experienced burnout, but it was an absolute resentment of the art itself. I was like, ah, you know, because like I can't, like I don't have enough Down time, and you said something that's really interesting, that's all tying together. I know both of our minds are like million places, but what I found was that when you are always on in your art, there's no time to absorb. So what you're saying about social media having some good time, yeah, you can consume, because then you can go in. Similar to like before sales. For me it was like go listen to a new album, go read a new book, go Experience other art, like that stuff still exists, guys. I know it's hard to believe, but you can still go out down the street and you can walk into an art gallery and then you could just be visually, you know, stimulated.

Speaker 1:
17:14

And that's what Todd Henry talks about in his book accidental creative. He talks about stimulus and how important it is for the creative. Yeah, and the difference between efficiency getting something done really fast, highly productive, right Versus effectiveness. Sometimes you're sitting there and tell me if you've ever had this with, like the morning pages, you just sit and nothing comes out. That's still super effective, right, it's so because you have to put yourself in those situations to realize, like, okay, sometimes we stay so surface. You know, we practice for five minutes as musicians, we practice for half an hour a day. We never get into the dirt, into the stuff. Have you ever felt that with like let's, let's turn this into like where's, where's your writing fit into all of this? How, how do you experience the creative process? Do you ever get into those stuck moments and if so, what do you do?

Speaker 2:
18:08

Absolutely yeah. So yeah, as a writer, a content writer, and then also that's my personal you know my professional job and then in my personal life, I'm just started working on a fiction book, which is like two totally completely different things. I've wanted to write this fiction book for a really long time. I've had that idea for like two years. I Took little baby steps towards. I took writing classes and things like that to help me like create the first draft, and I Would end up wrapping up with the class and not have written a first draft. And it's interesting when you're wanting to tap into that creative well and like just nothing is coming out. And there's so many different reasons for that.

Speaker 2:
18:52

I think for me, in this particular scenario, a lot of what I'm writing is pulling from real life and a lot of it was like some painful stuff that I like coming of age type stuff that happened. And I think for me I just was not ready to go there and I think somewhere my subconscious or my inner knowing or whatever you want to call it, was like you're not ready for this yet, but Just like keep going towards it, like don't give up on it, and it took, like it's taken like a year, two years now, where I've had this idea for so long and I think about it every day, make notes about it, and then don't write anything, because it's just like when I sit down to the page, nothing comes out. It's like it's been the strangest thing. But now, for some reason, I don't know what happened it's like okay, I'm ready. Now I have an outline, like a full outline, first scene lasting everything in the middle.

Speaker 1:
19:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2:
19:47

And it just. It's like you just have to respect that like what I've liked to Spin it out in three months and one of those classes that I paid for that was right. Your first draft in three months, that would have been great, yeah, but I can't predict like it's so interesting, you can't really predict, like when something is so personal, what the end result is going to be, and to just like have patience with yourself and have patience with that Process and try not to make it mean anything that it doesn't mean. Like I'm not cut out for this, I shouldn't even be trying to do this.

Speaker 2:
20:17

It's like you're just maybe you're just not ready and that's okay, and maybe you're just someone who needs like a slower pace, and that's okay to create. I personally need like a ton of space, like more than I feel like is probably reasonable. I gave myself a ton of space from like Christmas Eve to New Year's Day. Um, didn't work, which was like whoo kind of a little um little scary, but All of this stuff just welled up after I did that and I didn't even have to try, like it just came out. Um. So just to give yourself the things that you really need, and if you don't know what you need, just spend a little bit of time trying to figure that out and getting close to that and like understanding yourself and like your human design Will be really, really helpful to know. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
21:05

Yeah and just that permission that you can give yours, because no one else can do that like you're the authority in this, and that's another thing. I think sometimes we get stuck waiting for someone to tell us like you're, you've made it. Like you're doing it, you're a writer, you're a real musician, whatever it is, and no one's gonna do that like you're, the only one that can really claim that. And so To step into that role and to be that for yourself, even if it looks like nothing, what? Like what anyone else is doing it like that's cool, that's okay, and to just Stick with it and give it time you might need a lot of time and a lot of space and to just give yourself that.

Speaker 1:
21:44

Yeah, there's a couple things coming up I'm just made note on. I want to return to like the rituals and the practice, especially in that little time off, because you said something. You're like it was a little bit like that and I know there's tons of listeners. You guys have heard me before talking about like how weird it feels to be be instead of do right, and that's that's something I want to return. We've mentioned it a couple times, though, and I want to just give I can tell that there's there's. I just feel on the other side of the mic there's somebody wondering a little bit more about human design, because I talk about it quite frequently but until people really come in, sometimes it's a little too out there for for folks. How has human design, if like just a Cole's notes layman's understanding of that? How did you first get into understanding human design and how has it shaped you both professionally and personally? Has there been any big aha moments after understanding more of the of the your profile?

Speaker 2:
22:47

Yes, I think, especially in like the generator, like, our purpose is to respond, so it helps us if we're given something to respond to, but also we need to pay attention to our response, our like body response, our thought response to certain things. So back to that example of when I was doing social media work. I knew in my gut that I didn't want to be doing that, but I was letting my head like override that and then that's when resentment built up and it got really messy and it was just like a whole thing. And it's like you usually know, even if you don't want to face what you know.

Speaker 1:
23:28

More, more often than not, that it's like you, just like. You try to like coach it, and that's where it comes down to. You know, when you're talking about like you just had that feeling In. In music fit method, we have the thing called like your heart gut. It's a co CEO. It's like these guys and people listen to the show. They've heard me say. It's worth mentioning again, though, too, and it's like so many times.

Speaker 1:
23:52

We try to override everything. We try to make decisions either getting into decisions or getting out of decisions with our head, but the thing, the funny thing that we forget or tend to push away, is that decisions are made emotionally, not logically right. They're justified afterwards with logic most of the time sometimes, but if you're ever in a, if you're ever in a situation where you're like I don't know, let's like you got to tune in, like you said, get present, understand yourself and then listen to what your heart says about that situation, listen to what your gut says about that situation. If they're both in agreeance, it's a go. If they're both like nah, it's a no. And if one's kind of in, the other's kind of out, it's a wait, which is still a decision A lot of people get hung up on the I can't make decisions and I'm like no, waiting is a decision, choosing to not do something is a decision. It's the intent behind it that a lot of people get hung up on. They just float through life. And what I noticed with like human design and I'd love to get your thoughts on this is that when I was trying to do the generator activities like go, go, go, hustle, hustle, hustle, finish, finish, finish, do everything all at once I would do that for about four days.

Speaker 1:
25:12

Then I learned I was a projector. I am like the perfect guide. So I've got the vision, I've got the roadmap, I've got all the tools and then I get the people like yourself, the generators and manifesting generators to go and execute it. And that changed my life and every profile has a very different thing. So there are probably a lot of musicians, creatives out there acting out of alignment from their human design, and that's why it's such an important part of what I coach, because I need to know how I'm going to interact with that person. If I've got another projector out there, I have to teach them to be like me. If I've got a generator, I just have to give them unbelievable amount of tasks and they just do it. It's like all right, cool, right. So it's like you got to understand yourself and how your body responds to those situations Because, like you said, if you're out of alignment, that resentment comes in and then oftentimes, if it's involved with your art, you'll take two to three years off and just like hate, art, hate, whatever your outlet is, because you don't even know why it's so wild.

Speaker 1:
26:19

The other part I wanted to talk about there is rituals. So when you're talking about you had that time off and it was super, super scary. Why, first of all, what made it scary and what did you do to get into that creative? You mentioned you had a flow. It took a little bit of time, but how did you get into that flow? What kind of things were you doing day to day to help accelerate that?

Speaker 2:
26:46

Getting into nature really helps a lot. I know I hear a lot of people say that I'm on the same team. My husband and I loaded up our two little dogs and we went in our camper and, just like went into the woods. Man, we went to a couple different state parks from Christmas Eve to New Year's Day and I think one of those parks like there's no TV, like Internet's kind of sketchy, like if you get in the right spot and like hold your phone just right, like you can send a text if you need to. We didn't really need to, but it was.

Speaker 2:
27:22

It was a little nerve wracking to take days off of work that I could technically be doing work, I could technically be looking for more clients, because that's always part of the hustle.

Speaker 2:
27:32

Like we tapped on that just a little bit in the pre show for a second, but it is a hustle to always be seeking, client seeking and to take a pause from that when I really felt like I needed to be client seeking and I really didn't have time to be giving myself space.

Speaker 2:
27:49

Like who did? I think I was taking all this time off of work and opting out of money making and everything, but it was so it came on the end of like many, many months of just stress and like some upheaval in my business and things that I was still kind of working through, like psychologically, some just stressful stuff that happened and just like working through that mentally and working through that creatively to honestly and to have that much space uninterrupted, where I was not expect, because everyone knew I was off. No one was expecting anything of me, I just got to be, which is like what you want all the time, like I just want to be, like I'm so tired of doing all this stuff, I just want to like go to the woods and be, and then you get there and you're like I hate this, like I feel like.

Speaker 2:
28:42

I'm coming out of my skin, like I need something to do and I think this was a good idea. And that lasts for like I don't know, maybe like a day, and then it feels really nice. It's like I get to pay attention to my surroundings, I get to notice how my coffee actually tastes, like I get to sit here and be here, not somewhere else, like off in my head, wondering like, oh, that marketing thing I need to do when I get home, or oh, that email need to send, or oh, that person I need to connect with, like I can't forget. I can't forget, make a note about it and then stop thinking about it.

Speaker 1:
29:13

Like yeah, if you're, if you tend.

Speaker 2:
29:17

Yeah, if you tend to forget things, like just make a note somewhere that you won't forget and then just go back to like being like you said, which it will feel gross. I mean it feels really hard at first but once you can settle into that. I did a ton of journaling, I did a ton of hiking, just like that physical exertion was really good and some of it was really annoying because my husband's like so much of a better hiker than I am, so he'd be like way off up the trail and I'm like way back here.

Speaker 2:
29:49

And I'd be like I hate this one and I think I can was going to be fun. I hate it and then at the end it's always worth it. Like the views and everything. It was great. And just to do that and not have to like okay, I got to rush back to the camper and open my laptop and get some stuff done just to have that no agenda, like. No, my brain just really needed that lack of focus, because then you can focus on where you are and what you're actually doing right now. And for someone who spends a lot of time up in their head and has trouble with the embodiment piece and like bringing myself down into my body from my head, it was like so it feel like. I was like does everyone know this? Like, and it's like yes, everyone knows this about taking time off. That is why people take time off.

Speaker 1:
30:34

You're just the only one trying to convince yourself that that's bullshit. I know, I know, I know well, we do that. I love, I love that piece and I do want to bring in the hustle bit. I'm so glad that you mentioned that again because, like so much of our society, and especially in the creative arts, is like go, go, go, we got it. Like it's in music I'm sure it's the same in writing. It's like you got to say yes to nearly every single opportunity for fear of missing out and that's huge in the music industry.

Speaker 1:
31:07

And to be able to teach somebody how to have the ability to say, not necessarily no, but not right now, because that it's out of line with where they are right now, because, like, the shiny distractions along the way are the things that deter us from our overall goal. So when I'm sitting down with somebody brand new and we look at here's the goal and here are our core values, that's like the playbook to run your decisions by. Like anything that comes up when that agent wants to get into the radio show or if you want to get into this sink placement, does it line up with the values? Does it line up with the goals? Do you have a similar outlook when you're sitting down with somebody new coming into, like the podcast guesting world, or like, hey, I've got this great idea. I want to get it out there to the world.

Speaker 1:
31:53

What is what is like the, the avenue that they can expect to get into, because it seems quite overwhelming, I know. For me anyways, when I first started I was like because there's so much that I want to do, what's talk to me about your process for for, like, eliminating that hustle regimen, like is there, is there a formula? The Casey Hayes model.

Speaker 2:
32:16

I don't know that there's necessarily a formula, but it does go back to what you said earlier about having intention with your decisions and like what is your intention?

Speaker 2:
32:25

I think a lot of people confuse decisive knit. Will they confuse impulsivity with decisiveness? I run into that a lot with clients that I'm helping. They like pride themselves on, like I'm really decisive and it's like, but I've seen some of the decisions that you've made lately and I kind of feel like you're just on impulse and that's OK, but it just it seems like they're unaware of it and I'm like God, I don't ever want to be the one like just trying to move through, like let's just make a decision, let's just make like I want to, even if it takes a couple of days, and it's like oh, this person's waiting on my answer. Well, they can wait on your answer. If it takes you a couple of days to really check in and figure out what it is you want to do, it'll save you so much more resentment down the road when you have agreed to something that you don't really want.

Speaker 1:
33:14

Yeah, that's huge. Sounds like there's a story. Did you ever do that yourself?

Speaker 2:
33:21

With the resentment piece or with the yeah like like making yeah, making that that impulsive decision.

Speaker 1:
33:26

like has that, has that affected you and your career?

Speaker 2:
33:30

I'm sure that it has. I'm trying to think back. You know there's been so many decisions. I've been in the online business world for almost five years now and it's it's been a lot of. It's like a testing process, like I try not to see it as as much of like oh, I tried that and it didn't work out as like a failure type thing, like it's not really success or fail all the time. It's just we'll try something and see if you like it, because if you've never done it, how are you going to know? Yeah, so a lot of it is like one of my friends, carrie, loves to say like you should figure stuff out. Like if someone asks you to do something and you don't know how to do it, but it sounds really cool. You're like I'll just figure it out and you teach yourself how to do it, and I mean that's a huge skill for anyone in online business. You know creative music, all of it. But yeah, I'm sure there's been decisions that I've that I would look back and wish like, oh, I kind of feel like I shouldn't have done that, but I don't really regret anything because I really like where I am presently and you can't you can't take that road and wish, like, if you're happy where you are, you can't really wish things were different.

Speaker 2:
34:41

In my opinion, so it's just a matter of, in the future, connecting with intention before you make decisions, thinking about again, like with your human design, knowing yourself how. What's the best way to make a decision? Is it from your gut? Do you need to take time? Is it instant? You know and all that is has variables how connected to yourself you are. If you're scrolling on Instagram like two hours a day, you're probably not going to be in the best decision making capacity because you're not going to be that connected to what you really want and things like that. And it's just, it's such an integrative process. There's like 5000 different variables and it's so hard to say that, like, what works for me might work for the next person and it might sound crazy to somebody. So, yeah, it's just a matter of figuring out you really and using yourself as your, as your blueprint for all your decisions.

Speaker 1:
35:35

Yeah, and it sounds like the overarching message, for yourself too, is really just getting clear about you, like coming back to the center and doing the things, like maybe maybe it is getting out into nature, maybe it is going out and just being in, like this silence, like actually just pressing pause and walking without the earbuds in, like without the phone, like just getting out into and like, whoa, are the trees always this bright? You're just, you're always sleepwalking. You know, and so many of us in the creative process, I've a big policy. That's like you know, I've seen it in nearly two decades of working this stuff with folks and myself is that the way you are in one is the way you are in many. So if you're finding it very difficult in your creative process to, for example, as a songwriter, to get a clear, articulate image of that song, and you're also finding it hard to go out and walk and notice the things around you, could there be a relationship there and a lot of people go, oh, I never thought of it that way, right, but the way you are in one thing is how, like, those principles govern a lot of your different subconscious areas of thought, and that's why it's important to know your human design. It's important to know how you can respond rather than reacting. You know, in conflict, when you've got like, we have another saying to serve the song.

Speaker 1:
37:04

So for any writers out there, the pages like the book, the product, is it going to be better for the book? You know, if you happen to be co-writing something, if you happen to be working in the studio with other writers, like there's all these things that come into like, if you have habits in your personal life that you're not addressing, you're not checking, they're going to show up in those areas too in your professional and personal life. Right, it's just the way it is. So I mean, I think it's a on that like deep note, I think we got to change things up and like bring it back to like.

Speaker 1:
37:39

Let's be serious here. We're both clowns. I'd love to take you on a little fun trip here. We like to have the audience interaction part, and I just want to get to know Casey from, like, a completely random perspective. So, if you're game for it, I've got a few questions here that I prepared that might have some to very little relevance to the rest of this, but I think that's fun in just being a person, so are you game for that?

Speaker 2:
38:06

I'm so game, let's do it.

Speaker 1:
38:08

So you mentioned you were a foodie and I want to start there.

Speaker 2:
38:12

Okay.

Speaker 1:
38:13

Pineapple on pizza.

Speaker 2:
38:15

Yes.

Speaker 1:
38:16

Yes, okay.

Speaker 2:
38:17

Yes.

Speaker 1:
38:17

You fold your pizza.

Speaker 2:
38:19

No.

Speaker 1:
38:21

Okay Cool. What's your go-to karaoke song?

Speaker 2:
38:26

Blue Suede shoes. Oh Goodness.

Speaker 1:
38:29

Classic. We're getting there. Okay, now also, I know you're. You know they say that the leaders are readers. Not only are you a reader, you're also a writer. If you could have dinner with any historical figure across the board, who would it be Dead, alive, doesn't matter, you could even have like a like. I'm going to give you like. I know that's a tough question, but if you've got like, maybe you've got three seats in the house.

Speaker 2:
39:01

Okay.

Speaker 1:
39:02

You'd have like dinner with three of your heroes.

Speaker 2:
39:04

Oh man, and it can be anyone, anyone historical.

Speaker 1:
39:07

Anybody Historical you name. It Could be, could be music, could be history, could be like a philosopher, any time frame.

Speaker 2:
39:16

Wow. Well, I have to, I have to say Elvis, obviously.

Speaker 1:
39:21

Yeah, well, I mean, you're going to be playing a song, Obviously, yeah.

Speaker 2:
39:24

Yeah, elvis, the king of rock and roll. Okay, oh man, my brain is exploding with possibilities. I'm just going to have to start picking, okay. So that decisiveness Assuming that like this is a magical realm where we can all speak the same language.

Speaker 1:
39:51

I will not speak like Cleopatra. Oh my goodness, yeah, that'd be great. Elvis and Cleopatra, that would be a great mashup.

Speaker 2:
40:00

Wouldn't that be interesting. Whoa and George Washington.

Speaker 1:
40:09

Incredible, incredible.

Speaker 2:
40:10

Founding father, throw him in there.

Speaker 1:
40:12

I was going to say like, just for the fact that, hey, america, like, like dude, what were? That would be my question. What were you thinking You're brilliant?

Speaker 2:
40:23

And yes, and like, what do you think now? Like sorry, I'm just going to leave it at that.

Speaker 1:
40:31

Like oh, my goodness Okay. This one, let's go. Guilty pleasure TV show or movie.

Speaker 2:
40:43

Ooh, guilty pleasure. Lately I have been watching and I don't know where this came from, but I have been watching a lot of documentaries on like polygamy, like real like, not like sister wives on TLC type thing, but like the real, like weird stuff, yeah, yeah, any kind of cult, anything, whether it's the polygamy cults or yeah, I don't know where that came from. Cool, because I'm not usually a documentary watcher, but all of a sudden I'm like give me all the cults.

Speaker 1:
41:20

Hit me with the cult stuff. I got to figure it out.

Speaker 2:
41:24

Oh my gosh like. Twin Flames universe.

Speaker 1:
41:26

Oh, okay, I've seen the stuff on that.

Speaker 2:
41:28

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:
41:29

No, but I know, okay, that is interesting, fascinating, and that's I mean even going into the podcast world like all of like the mystery murder series and things like that. All these deep, dark, like fantasy things are the most popular things. And it's interesting because, like we tend not to talk about these things but like all of our interest is gage so much to that. And so I mean it always brings that question to me, like what if we just like normalized it more? Would it be as popular? I don't know.

Speaker 2:
41:57

That's a good question.

Speaker 1:
41:59

Okay, pancakes or waffles.

Speaker 2:
42:02

Waffles.

Speaker 1:
42:03

Sweet, okay. And then weirdest, because we just got to finish with food here. Weirdest food combination that you enjoy. Like what's the weirdest meal? Do you like to cook? Like is are you the cook?

Speaker 2:
42:14

I do.

Speaker 1:
42:14

Okay. What's the weirdest? What's the weirdest meal that you on the menu? You'd be like I don't know, but it's a bomb, bomb meal.

Speaker 2:
42:24

Oh yeah, well, there's a. I don't I would call it a meal. It's like a sandwich that I grew up eating, and like peanut butter and banana sandwich, but like peanut butter is on one slice of the bread and mayonnaise is on the other slice of the bread. What it's disgusting.

Speaker 1:
42:43

Oh yeah, it sounds horrible. Okay, like gross.

Speaker 2:
42:47

But for some reason sometimes I still crave it, probably because I ate it a lot as a kid. That's whack, sounds revolting.

Speaker 1:
42:55

That does. Yeah, like that just sounds vile, like I'm going to go immediately hurl, like that's something I would poison my friends with. Like that's. Like no, I mean that sounds almost as bad as what we call a. What do they call it? The prairie fire. It's a shot Like I don't drink anymore and this is one of the reasons. But one of the things that was like a gateway shot was like Tabasco sauce in. I don't know if it was whiskey or tequila, it probably didn't matter because you couldn't taste it anyways. It was just disgusting, revolting, and that I mean I'm putting that up there, like that's. That's pretty gross. I'm going to have to come down to Alabama and have one of these Alabama PB and J&As. Pb and J&As no, it's a banana, I don't even know. We got to have a name for that. That'll be for round two too. We'll find a name for that Perfect, delicious meal. I feel like I've sent some kind of record for this this answer to this question?

Speaker 2:
43:52

That's, that's crazy, but this one I want to finish with this because I forgot about this one.

Speaker 1:
43:57

If I could send you back we're going to go back in time again. You got the time machine out. If I could send you back to like prehistoric times Okay, and you got to go hang out with like the dinos and all that Could you eat a full dinosaur If I gave you like a week.

Speaker 2:
44:18

No, I doubt it. Yeah, I doubt it. It's tough, I guess. A big big beast, it's really really big yeah.

Speaker 1:
44:27

Okay, like would you need?

Speaker 2:
44:30

like a month? Yeah, probably so, and I'd have to figure out some kind of curing process for the meat, because that stuff's going to go bad.

Speaker 1:
44:38

Bring my friends, bring the dinner party, help them, maybe they can help me.

Speaker 2:
44:43

Elvis and Cleopatra can help me eat the dinosaur.

Speaker 1:
44:48

That's awesome. Let's take that avenue. I want to go into the into more about your music before we wrap things up here today. Elvis what about Elvis? It's like his names come up a couple of times. I mean when. When was the first time you really realized that you know music was a thing Like? What? Was your relationship growing up with music?

Speaker 2:
45:11

Oh yes. So I know when I was a baby I already knew how to make the Elvis face and do the Elvis look, because that was like the trick that everybody was like get Casey to do it, get Casey to do the Elvis look, and so I know that I was very aware of Elvis from a young age. I can blame that or thank, depending on how you look at it, my mom for that. A lot of my music I've been thinking about this lately A lot of my musical taste has come from some type of influence from my mom. Very like traditional country bluegrass, like Appalachian roots type music, stuff like mandolin, banjo, things like that, stuff that I didn't really appreciate when we would listen to it. When I was young I'll be like, oh, I don't like this, like put on Christina Aguilera or something. But as I got into like my teens and twenties, it was a different. It was a different thing and I really like it now, like that's what I go to a lot Sierra Farrell, charlie Crockett, coulterwall, different Ameri I think it's Americana.

Speaker 2:
46:17

Hayes Farrell yeah that's definitely my genre, I would say. And then, of course, like Dolly Parton and Elvis, you know the greats.

Speaker 1:
46:27

Of course, yeah, that's a great question about.

Speaker 2:
46:29

Yeah, I definitely think a lot of it came from my mom's influence and being around that so much as a kid and that just like gets into your little kid's sponge brain and stays in there.

Speaker 1:
46:40

Yeah Well, when you hear like that's why I ask that question too is like when you hear blue-sway shoes or or you know anything any timeless classic, where, where do you go? What's the first memory?

Speaker 2:
46:53

that cops up. Hmm, now I probably I go to when I went to Memphis. We went to Memphis about 10 years ago and it was just like a quick weekend, really fun. My husband surprised me with it because I'd been wanting to go and we lived sort of close so there was really no reason why we had never been and it was like the height of my Elvis super fandom. Like I had like several different pairs of blue-sway shoes, things like that. So, of course, like I wore a couple in Memphis and we went to tour Sun Studio and which was gorgeous, like I got really emotional in Sun Studio. It kind of took me about surprise all the different.

Speaker 2:
47:34

They would like bring the lights down and play like an original recording that like no one else had ever heard. Like that was the first take of this first song. Some were from Elvis and some were from other artists too, and it was amazing. And then we go down to the bottom floor of Sun Studio and they kind of have us like stayed in this corner so they can talk about this other thing, and they're like, actually, if you look back there, there's an X on the floor which is where Elvis stood when he recorded blue-sway shoes. I was standing on it and I didn't even know until they told us to look. So now that's what I think about and how that was so cool. I was like I'm literally standing where I stood. So exciting yeah.

Speaker 1:
48:16

You said a lot of stuff that like this is. This is the reason a lot of people pursue music, myself included. I was just fascinated with like the rock star. My dad introduced me to the Stones. All I listened to the Stones and then on my mom's side, she would have a lot of she's German, so she would have a lot of like the Mozart and the Beethoven and a lot of classical. So you'd learn the beauty and the elegance of that, combined with like the brash rock and roll of like the Stones, right, and I'm like whoa. And then Zeppelin came in, def Lepper and all these like heavy rock bands that were like whoa. They're so cool, right.

Speaker 1:
48:50

So my question to you is like what, what is it about the rock star that in your line of work, now that you you're able to essentially use podcasts and your writing copy and stuff like that as a way of expressing that person's message? Like what? Are there any similarities to like Zeppelin doing a world tour and then you taking maybe an author or a creative or a musician on a single release podcast tour or a like a book launch tour? Are there, are there relationships? Can we think of it that way? Is it because that's how it thinks and like I'm like that's. That makes perfect sense to me. Am I the crazy one here? Is that something?

Speaker 2:
49:34

Yeah, there's definitely a thread there, I think, and I like that you pointed that out, because we've talked about this a couple of times before and I never would have thought of it that way.

Speaker 2:
49:42

But for you, like coming, coming at it through the musician lens, it makes total sense and I think it's just a matter of yeah, like you said, distilling that language down into, like when I'm pitching someone, what I'm really doing is getting to the heart of their message and sharing why that's important with specific people and why they should connect. So what I'm doing is I connect. I work on behalf of a potential podcast guest to connect them with potential podcast hosts or podcast hosts that could potentially have them on their show, and you have to find, like that, relevance. If you're like cold outreach, you know which is what I do, but it's it's not as like it sounds ick when people think cold outreach. But really podcast hosts a lot of the time myself included like we appreciate it when people reach out. If it's done in a certain way, it's not like that ick factor of it just feels gross, like they're not, they haven't customized it for you at all, it feels like they just addressed a hundred of the same email copy send.

Speaker 2:
50:47

You know like sometimes.

Speaker 1:
50:49

I just got one like that Did you, yeah, but it was even back, it was even more backwards and I'm just like I'm not, I'm not there. Like I feel like I'm just going to send my link because I still value, but this person BCC, like who at, like who knows how many people that they had got and then sent like a times list of things that you have to like like first come, first serve. Look at all of that. I'm like nah, man, like I'm not grouped in like cattle here. Like, if you want, like premier guests, what are some of like the best practices? Like what kind of stuff? What is the right way to pitch it then? Cause you mentioned that, like if it's done the right way, what is the right way?

Speaker 2:
51:28

Yeah, I definitely would never include multiple people on one email like that. Just to pick apart that particular example, and also the first come, first serve time slot thing, it puts the onus on the host to do the work to connect with the guests and, like you're asking to be on their show. So definitely wouldn't do that. Um, ultimately I could, I could go through like probably 20 different factors of doing it the right way, but to make it really simple, it's ultimately making it as easy as possible for the host to say yes, whether that's, you know it's a really respectful, really tuned in pitch Use their name. You know you don't just say hi comma, like please use their name. Please listen to a few episodes and demonstrate that you've done so, especially in the first couple lines of the email. Um, you can even connect it to yourself like hey, oh, my gosh.

Speaker 2:
52:25

Um, I just heard your podcast about like autoimmune disease and motherhood and you know it really spoke to me because I, you know, while I don't have kids, I do have chronic illness and you have to be really careful with your time and especially like setting boundaries in your business. Blah, okay, there you've connected like illness to business and say I have a coach that's a business coach and I'm working with so and so and I feel like they'd be a really good match for you because a lot of their values around business are connect with you and XYZ. So let's just like give it clear examples of how their expertise matters to your show and matters to your platform and then offer a few like speaking points that you've noticed that they haven't talked about yet or that they haven't talked about in a specific way. Um, for example, I was working with a sex intimacy coach last year and it a lot of her clients were like divorced or like empty nesters. So I would target like podcasts where that was the audience, and so a lot of those topics.

Speaker 2:
53:29

There's so many topics around divorce and emptiness, and so I would think you know, okay, have they talked about couples and intimacy in any of these? Have they talked about like specific things that I knew my client could speak to? And even if they did just release an episode on, like you know, empty nest how to like reconnect with your partner when your kids have moved out you could say you could listen to a little bit of the episode and figure out how my guest could fill in the blanks, like oh, I noticed you didn't talk as much about this thread. Oh my gosh, if you wanna do a whole other episode about that, my client would be great for it. And then you've basically come up with another episode for them. You've connected them with a guest, you've shown them that you care about their content and want to help them make more good content, and it's just a matter of having that clear outline of exactly what you do, exactly who you do it for and how to communicate it really clearly and effectively.

Speaker 1:
54:21

I love that because, like, that's what got my my gears all turning up in the old noggin. On like because a musician even if they're releasing a single, well, where did that song come from? Yeah, I'm a musician, but that's like the afterthought. That person is gonna talk about the story of the writing process. That person could be on a creative. It could be on a wellness podcast, could be on a like anything fits the bill because the song has so much content Like who does who's this song for? And then pitch it towards like a podcast that would like address those types of topics.

Speaker 1:
54:56

So I think it's endless for something as a single campaign to build up an audience in this digital era that we're in right now. I think it's just a brilliant platform, because another thing podcasts are really great for is like showing where those listens are coming from. So and that's what we use in marketing for musicians anyways is we wanna know where the Spotify playlists are and where the like, where the popular hot spots are for your music, so that you can go on tour there knowing that people will show up to your show. Same thing for a podcast, and I'm sure it's the same with any kind of creative discipline, right, like as an author that's launching a book. Well, what are some of these topics?

Speaker 1:
55:35

That's why I wrote my first book is like it was literally a business card. I'm like because then I had something to say hey, I talk about this in chapter one, I'd love to give a presentation, and now you've got a live event. That's how you monetize your music. That was, it was a book for me, but that was how I monetized my skill, right. So it's like cool, you can actually do a live event. Imagine a band, because, like musicians can, like music can definitely change the world. But imagine a band giving more like keynotes before they actually play the concert. You know like, oh yeah, by the way, we've got a concert tonight, but what we're doing is like a library event talking about all of the different studies that we came to in order to write the actual album that you're gonna hear later tonight. You know, like things like that, that creativity of like oh yeah, like how I'm sure opportunities are endless, right, wouldn't you say with that.

Speaker 2:
56:26

Definitely yeah, and people love to hear about the creative process. I actually I did a little speaking thing with an author's platform recently and she was like, well, you know, speaking on behalf of the audience, she was like, what do we talk about? You know, besides our book it was fiction writers, romance writers. Like, besides that, like what the heck do we have to say? Like, what do people care about? You know, what do people wanna hear? And I'm like talk about your creative process, talk about the story, talk about how that came to you. Like people love that stuff. Like I follow authors on Instagram and anytime they're sharing, like even where they sit to write, I'm like, oh, that's where you go to write, oh, that's so cool. Like people are just sucked in by that. Like any kind of tidbit that you can share. She's like I like to write outside because I can, like, do some grounding first.

Speaker 1:
57:16

Like she had her bare feet on the ground, things like that.

Speaker 2:
57:20

I'm like that's brilliant. Well, I haven't thought of that, like I can try that, like it's anything like that is so enriching.

Speaker 1:
57:27

Yeah, no, I really agree with that, and prozone the clock here and I'm mindful of our time. I'd love to connect people with you if they are interested. What's the best way to contact you? What are you up to these days? Who are you looking for? This is the yeah, like. How do we connect the dots so that people can learn how to get out there and get their message to more people?

Speaker 2:
57:54

Heck, yeah. Well, if you have a podcast that you're wanting to make the most of, I repurpose podcast content for podcasters, and I also am still doing so. I have a little bit of availability for podcast guest pitching, so if either of those are calling to you, the best place to reach me is my website, which is just KCHAZEcom, and it's K-A-C-E-Y-H-A-Y-E-Scom.

Speaker 1:
58:18

Perfect, there we go. You mentioned one more thing that I just have like so many questions. I'm so curious. I'm like books, what are like? What's the number one book that like absolutely changed your professional career?

Speaker 2:
58:38

Wow, that's a big question. Probably at the time and since there's some things I'm like, I don't know, but at the time Big Magic by. Elizabeth Gilbert.

Speaker 1:
58:55

I haven't read that.

Speaker 2:
58:56

Big Magic, that's a good one.

Speaker 1:
59:01

What was the big takeaway? What was the lesson?

Speaker 2:
59:05

From what I and this has been years ago and I usually do rereads but from what I remember, it was very honoring of like the individual journey. Like you don't have to try to do it like anyone else, you don't have. Like there's no one formula, there's no hack. Like there's no, as much as we might want a blueprint of like do this, this and this and you'll have a successful book or you'll have a successful album. Like it just doesn't work, like that and to be okay with your own creative process and how you work. She shares a lot about sending her submissions to publications and like all of her rejection letters and stuff like that, which is very helpful. Like someone as successful as her talking about her rejections and her like failures, which everything is research. So even if it's a failure, it still serves, it can still serve the song, it can still serve the story down the road. It all all that experience is so relevant.

Speaker 1:
1:00:05

I love that. That's beautiful and it ties in very nicely with the very final one, cause I want to get your thoughts. What's the one thing if we were talking about the secrets to success, what is the secret to success, regardless of what discipline you are, if you're a musician, if you're a creative, you're an artist, a graphic designer, whatever it is, what is the? What is the secret really to unleashing that rock star?

Speaker 2:
1:00:31

I think it's to do it your own way, Like you can have guides and you can have examples and you can have inspiration and you can look at what those people have done and you can like learn from their mistakes or learn from their lessons. But I think ultimately, you have to be okay with it's like a solo journey and to be okay with that and to like get another reason to really get to know yourself really well, Because it's just, it's really just you doing this, You're the authority and you're the the one doing all of it. And to let that be enough and to not make that, make yourself wrong for anything that like oh well, I'm not doing it this way and they did it this way, or I'm not. You know that means that I'm gonna fail or that means that I'm not gonna have the same level of success. It doesn't mean any of that, Like it really doesn't. And to just hone into that and listen and stay connected with yourself because you're the one. It's really all up to you.

Speaker 1:
1:01:32

That's absolutely beautiful Folks. You know what time it is. You can head over to kchazecom find out all the fun things this beautiful soul is up to. I wish you all the best with the, with the creative. I'm really excited to hear on round two how the fiction book is coming along and how things have sort of. You know, we're in an interesting season right now, by the sounds of things, where we're just letting things settle and it's always fun to be like in that uncertainty but still certain and like trusting, so I'm really excited for that. Thank you so much for your time, your space and your energy and any final thoughts.

Speaker 2:
1:02:17

I just I'm really glad that we got to do this today. This was so much fun. Thanks so much for having me. This was awesome.

Speaker 1:
1:02:24

You betcha All right guys. Kchazecom for all the more information, and you know where to find this under the radar podcom. I'm very excited for this one to get out there. We got a lot of stuff out of this one. What a valuable action packed resource. That was fun. All right until next time, folks y'all stay sweet Peace.